tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post2422098510229952645..comments2024-03-27T00:36:03.357-04:00Comments on Alice's CWIM Blog: Alice Popehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11245441447426418033noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-4221897793206555452009-04-24T02:59:00.000-04:002009-04-24T02:59:00.000-04:00I also agree with Mamma Drama on the Hill, in that...I also agree with Mamma Drama on the Hill, in that it may be where we are coming from in our own lives that determines which characters we see as strong or weak. I actually thought that Bella was more of an "old soul" and that her determination in sticking with what she wanted and never wavering (or changing her mind) was her strong point. How many teens (or even adults) are swayed by others opinions? Lots! I liked that she was not. <br />This has been a great post subject to read and be involved in! Thanks for letting me add my thoughts too.slkcivilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08671796534540871076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-89490902235655110842009-04-22T22:52:00.000-04:002009-04-22T22:52:00.000-04:00I am one of 5 people on the planet who has not rea...I am one of 5 people on the planet who has not read a Twilight book. But you make great points in your post. It really is disturbing if tweens want to model their relationships after Bella & Edward.Sherrie Petersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11670339498152684137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-40704457172087746262009-04-21T15:53:00.000-04:002009-04-21T15:53:00.000-04:00I can see where Alice is coming from, Edward's cha...I can see where Alice is coming from, Edward's character is so old fashioned that he is too over protective. But I was always more fearful of Jacob. Jacob did not seem respectful of Bella's body. He just wanted to shack up on the reservation together and stay there for the rest of their lives. On the other hand, Edward was always respectful of Bella's body. He was proud of her academic achievements and encouraged her in her desire to go to college. He wanted her to see the world and experience life. <br />I just think that people see what they want to see depending on what their paradigm is. My paradigm is different from the next reader's and their's is different from someone else.<br />Bella never seemed like a weak female character to me. She just seemed normal, human and imperfect. A lot of readers feel like her obsession over Edward weakened her character. As if the only way to be a strong, independent woman today is to be a complete island of emotion. I'd like to know what female character out there is an acceptable role model to those readers. Because I'm sure that answer could be directly related to what their paradigm is. One reader's strong is another reader's weak. I'd be interested to see what readers in other countries and cultures would say about this blog. As for me, I kind of like that Edward and Bella love each other but don't really know how. I don't think it is weak to care for another person and to keep trying even when you get it wrong. I think it is character building. And quite honestly that is realistic, because do any of you know anyone who is in a perfect relationship? Are any of you in perfect relationships? I mean honestly. For a work of fantasty, I think that one aspect of Edward and Bella's relationship is pretty much set in reality. I would not say their relationship is abusive. I would say it is just imperfect and therefore, realistic. I do not think Bella is a Rihanna.Mamma Drama on the Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12871251573579156451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-43764011330020983672009-04-21T12:38:00.000-04:002009-04-21T12:38:00.000-04:00For quite a while now, my circle of writer-friends...For quite a while now, my circle of writer-friends have been dissecting the Twilight saga and phenomenon. None of us could understand why the books are so popular--Stephanie Meyer is a lazy writer who does not do proper character development (she gives no lead-up to major plot points--like Bella's aversion to both growing older and getting married). <br /><br />The age difference has been touched on, but the truth of Edward's character (and what moves him from tragic to evil) is that, in nearly 100 years, he hasn't changed, he hasn't grown. Forget that his body is frozen in time--his mind is as well, and so are his emotions. He <I>has not</I> emotionally matured. Someone earlier mentioned Anne Rice--the greatest of her vampires (IMO) was Marius, the Eternal Man--the vampire who immersed himself in every new century, opened his mind to the world and learned. <br /><br />I would have no issue with this series if it was aimed at an adult audience--an adult reader has the intellectual toolkit and emotional maturity (we hope) to smell the rat. If this series <I>had</I> been pitched as adult lit, it would have gone nowhere--or ended up as a title in one of the romance publishers mass market list. Bella is a cardboard Disney princess in urban rags, Edward a Disney vampire--no depth, no dimension. <br /><br />I realized after re-reading <I>Breaking Dawn</I> why it upset so many readers--the series went from PG-rated sex and violence (well, G-rated by current standards) into a full-fledged R-rated level. Bella went from virgin to wife, gave birth within a month, went from human to vampire, and then started taking life. And instead of the epic battle, we have the petered out showdown--Meyers breaks Quiller-Couch's Law: she kills none of her darlings. What is the point? <br /><br />In short, bad writing and bad examples for the young girls reading it.Empresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10895649061017410443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-70960691491840577092009-04-21T09:49:00.000-04:002009-04-21T09:49:00.000-04:00Excellent post. Many of these things went through...Excellent post. Many of these things went through my mind when I was reading the series. Edward is very controlling. Jacob was always my favorite because he truly wanted Bella to be happy and had fun with her. I did thoroughly enjoy this series, but did recognize some unhealthy aspects to it.Kelly Polarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10968381456100611120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-69395049795402585412009-04-20T12:12:00.000-04:002009-04-20T12:12:00.000-04:00PS I do not mean to imply that being in an abusive...PS I do not mean to imply that being in an abusive relationship and not being able to get out is "not smart". Just wanted to clarify that as I knew, inevitably, that someone would pick what I said apart and find hidden meanings just like they did the novel!tinkandalissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519082764772978297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-79284831689042101002009-04-20T12:10:00.000-04:002009-04-20T12:10:00.000-04:00One more thing I'd like to throw in here, and then...One more thing I'd like to throw in here, and then I promise I am done...<br />People are so critical over the issues they feel this book presents, but this is a drop in the ocean, really. I mean, seriously. There are SO many other horrible things on TV, in songs played on the radio, in music videos, in video games, etc etc. Those are the things these kids are exposed to every single day. I do not feel that reading a work of fiction about one girl falling in love with a vampire is going to make a girl think abuse is ok. But that also puts it back to the parent to discuss with their children morals and these kinds of topics (sex, drugs, abuse, peer pressure, etc) so that the kids are smart enough to know whats wrong and whats right.tinkandalissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519082764772978297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-57561425395371479282009-04-19T19:38:00.000-04:002009-04-19T19:38:00.000-04:00It's amazing seeing this view point. As I was in a...It's amazing seeing this view point. As I was in a similar abusive relationship relationship in my twenties I should have picked up on it when I was reading the Twilight series. Now that it has been said I whole heartedly agree with the blog. I'm happily married now for over 10 years, and the bad relationship is only a memory, which is probably why I ignored the obvious. It's a good reminder to teach my kids (when they become teenagers) that Bella and Edwards relationship is not all right. Thanks for making the obvious even more so by voicing it on Alice's blog.Wendi Knapehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14587576132178255800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-49422742947438459452009-04-19T18:58:00.000-04:002009-04-19T18:58:00.000-04:00I was given Twilight by an super-fan with the warn...I was given Twilight by an super-fan with the warning that I would be totally in love with the book and with Edward. When I fell in love with neither, my friend accused me of not believing in love at first sight (which I do believe in, completely), but when I told her that I couldn't relate to Bella, she said it was because Bella and I are different races...um, okay...if you say so.<br /><br />Well, I'm not the same race as Hermione or Ginny Weasley, but I related to them, to characters who's pov we never see through in the Potter series. Yet I was able to feel pain and heartbreak--to know exactly what they were feeling when both of those girls were struggling with the boys they loved.<br /><br />I couldn't relate to Bella because I'm a strong woman. Even when I was a teen and falling for the first time, yeah, I got lost in the brown eyes and soft lips of my first boyfriend, but even that had it's limits of what I would and would not allow. Someone said that Bella never grows and that was my main issue with her. I think, as a writer, that I want to read and create characters who are flawed and learn from some of those flaws to become better characters by the end of the book/series. <br /><br />No one is perfect and I don't want to read or write perfect characters, but if they are flawed let them grow, let them learn and let them be more than just willing to be the damsel in distress or the fierce protector. <br /><br />I had a discussion with another friend who has just started reading the Twilight series. I was comparing Bella to another character in another pretty popular YA fantasy book (won't mention that because I didn't really like the MC in that book either). I mentioned that I thought Bella was bland and weak and my friend said, "Well, wouldn't she kinda have to be to fall for Edward's controlling personality and the story kinda needed that."<br /><br />Well, yes, the story was all about that, but wouldn't it have been so much more interesting if Bella had been this spunky girl who couldn't care less about Edward and told him to shove his controlling attitude where the sun don't shine and then he had to wear her down with his PERSONALITY? Now that would have been a story I would have loved.Karen Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15154015690643682525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-37191962920388999282009-04-19T16:39:00.000-04:002009-04-19T16:39:00.000-04:00Wow...I was just thinking about the abusive aspect...Wow...I was just thinking about the abusive aspect of Bella and Edward's relationship last week. This was a very interest blog with comments to read. Thank you! By the way, I don't have a stand yet on either boy...I'm trying to keep an open mind.A Wildflowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00210650895144145802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-28109066089934722512009-04-19T08:19:00.000-04:002009-04-19T08:19:00.000-04:00As any good writer knows, it is the reader who dec...As any good writer knows, it is the reader who decides what a work means. The author can only hope to be skilled enough to convince the reader of the meaning the author wishes to convey. <br /><br />So, whatever good or bad the book may do, it has been done. Ah, but we have a movie! Those who make movies condense books,giving the book their own movie meaning, which finds far more minds than the book ever will. Therefore, there is now a visual impression on the minds of readers and viewers alike. Often this is both obvious and subtle.<br /><br />Who was the movie's audience? What themes did the movie try to project onto the audience? Did people leave the movie in debate or did they leave with what the Director tried to firmly implant in their minds? These are not minor details in the hands of a craftsman with a multitude for an audience.<br /><br />Were the characters "classic" and predictable or did they deviate from the "classic". If so, how and in what ways did they deviate. Did "classic" aspects reenforce a "moral" norm? Did the deviations teach "new morals"? If so, what was taught. Over the course of history, the book may have the greater influence. While in the short term, the movie will have the greatest impact on society compared to the book.<br /><br />You see, the proper view of this work, is to go back to basics, such as the basics of a vampire, then move ever deeper, until one is viewing the work from a "modern values" perspective. Still, each person will decide the meaning, as a consensus of meaning develops over time. Enjoyed this topic, even though I neither saw the movie, nor read the book. Stephenie Meyer, public opinion will decide the meaning of your book, for better or for worse.Wyman Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246828004909260940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-29348052186063547152009-04-19T01:43:00.000-04:002009-04-19T01:43:00.000-04:00Excellent point Joyce Lansky! I knew something was...Excellent point Joyce Lansky! I knew something was missing from my "this is fiction" defense and couldn't put my finger on it...and that is it, he's a vampire! And a GOOD one by vampire standards. Thanks for adding that. Whew.<br /><br />Great discussion though...lots of good points made.slkcivilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08671796534540871076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-78034388271762986542009-04-18T20:45:00.000-04:002009-04-18T20:45:00.000-04:00wow- this is an amazing discussion.
We have a hu...wow- this is an amazing discussion. <br /><br />We have a huge responsibility to our youth. We need to tread very very carefully- and empower them with strength, hope, courage and self-worth. <br /><br />sermon over.Vodka Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04734323418017847775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-79454422916412479662009-04-18T10:44:00.000-04:002009-04-18T10:44:00.000-04:00This is a very interesting debate, but everyone ha...This is a very interesting debate, but everyone has overlooked one important fact: Edward is not human. If you look at it from the point of view of a vampire, he is very admirable. What have vampires always done? Stalked women then bit them in the neck. For him to have the control not to immediately bite his love and turn her into a vampire shows an incredible amount of control. It's like a wolf passing on the prey.Catch My Wordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06338761214938263819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-70851221505370029712009-04-18T02:23:00.000-04:002009-04-18T02:23:00.000-04:00I'm sticking to my earlier post too...
Someth...I'm sticking to my earlier post too... <br />Something to be aware of, but I think there are a lot of GOOD things about these books too. <br />And if you want to discuss being willing to give up your life for someone, what about "Romeo & Juliet" (not to start another discussion, but this is not a "new" idea here).<br />I was wondering why Stephenie Meyer is staying out of the limelight this year and in reading this I don't blame her. That's too bad though; I think she writes great books and gets a lot of criticism from writers and reviewers. <br />That's not to say it shouldn't be discussed though, excellent discussion everyone!slkcivilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08671796534540871076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-47683313401592819652009-04-17T23:03:00.000-04:002009-04-17T23:03:00.000-04:00Thanks for posting this. I never liked Edward's c...Thanks for posting this. I never liked Edward's character and was hoping to the end that Bella would choose Jacob- but then decided she didn't deserve him. ;) <br />I never put all the details together like you outlined but it does make sense.<br /><br />P.S. I have a "Team Jacob" shirt, too.Carrie Dalbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05202019382171205117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-9618297344597223112009-04-17T22:18:00.000-04:002009-04-17T22:18:00.000-04:00"Are young girls going to know that slight differe..."Are young girls going to know that slight difference? Are they going to be able to sit down and pick out an abuser from an Edward? They look VERY much the same at the beginning.<br /><br />I appreciate the quotes from Meyer clarifying Edward, but let's also remember something: an abuser would never label themselves as one. Again, I'm not saying Edward is a full blown abusive character. Not at all. But just because he has good intentions, doesn't mean it should all be forgiven."<br /><br />THANK YOU, Natalie! That's EXACTLY what I meant -- it is such a fine line between abuser and "nice," and teaching girls to WANT characteristics that abusers show is what is dangerous. <br /><br />I also think I should've clarified what I define as "abuser." I don't mean that Edward is easily identifiable as "abuser" (though that whole bruised-Bella thing in Breaking Dawn crossed a number of lines). Edward is a different breed of abuser, the ones who honestly believe that what they are doing will better the other person. The ones who force their decisions/opinions onto their significant other, all the while honestly intending to transform the person into their idea of "better." But they really just stifle the person in the process and never see how much damage they do. It's an emotional/psychological abuse. Those are the ones that aren't easily identifiable, and most girls never see that they are in a relationship like that until they get out of it and can look at it subjectively.<br /><br />And yes, I know this is fiction, but when I was younger, EVERYTHING I read left an impression on me. I learned most of my values/ways of belief based on books I read and the opinions of the world I found in them. To say that children could read something at age 13 and not be affected by it into their adulthood is undermining the strength of the written word. Certain things stick with children. Maybe this will, maybe this won't. But that's a rather risky chance.<br /><br />Awesome discussion, everyone!Sara Raaschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01196505323463444186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-85473771788613296092009-04-17T22:08:00.000-04:002009-04-17T22:08:00.000-04:00I started to feel sick to my stomach when Edward r...I started to feel sick to my stomach when Edward revealed to Bella that he had to go hunt mountain lion the night before their big date in order to avoid, well, killing her. And how does she respond? "I hope if this ends badly (i.e. he kills her) it doesn't hurt too much." She is so overpowered by his looks and charm she is willing to risk her very life to be with him. And yes, it makes me sad that young girls are so compelled by this love story, that this kind of blind adoration and dangerous self-sacrifice is "romance." Thank you so much for being brave and strong, and writing this.Summerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09951826715482061281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-57145635262692489282009-04-17T21:39:00.000-04:002009-04-17T21:39:00.000-04:00This is such a fine line to walk, and I think that...This is such a fine line to walk, and I think that's what makes this discussion fascinating. <br /><br />I have no doubt that Meyer didn't intend anything to look abusive, but there are threads. It goes back and forth. It's...close, but not quite. And it's that subtle difference that, I think, Sara is pointing out.<br /><br />Are young girls going to know that slight difference? Are they going to be able to sit down and pick out an abuser from an Edward? They look VERY much the same at the beginning.<br /><br />I appreciate the quotes from Meyer clarifying Edward, but let's also remember something: an abuser would never label themselves as one. Again, I'm not saying Edward is a full blown abusive character. Not at all. But just because he has good intentions, doesn't mean it should all be forgiven. <br /><br />This is probably why Twilight is so successful. Girls are trying to figure out this EXACT thing. Which boys will hurt me? They can completely identify with this, as disconcerting as it is to many.Natalie Whipplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09978251567306345129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-74243668148921135772009-04-17T19:30:00.000-04:002009-04-17T19:30:00.000-04:00I think Jacob is just as much of a prick as Edward...I think Jacob is just as much of a prick as Edward is. Jacob did try to force himself in Bella, after all. Remember that kiss where Bella broke her hand trying to get away from him? Not exactly commendable. And then there are his pedophilic tendencies with Renesmee. None of the major characters in these stories are worth writing home about. They're all twisted and screwed up and promote weakness, abuse and pedophilia. How the Twihards don't see ANY of this is beyond me.Donna (Bites)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12585421704517898076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-44283693584358582972009-04-17T18:02:00.000-04:002009-04-17T18:02:00.000-04:00I enjoyed this piece very much, thought the very s...I enjoyed this piece very much, thought the very same things as I read the books, but Sara stopped short of mentioning the one issue that really bothered me: Bella was willing to give up HER LIFE for Edward. <br /><br />Now, I realize I'm coming to this from the perspective of an almost-middle-aged mother of two daughters. If I had read this when I was sixteen, I'm sure I would have understood Bella's behavior and thought process. However, the fact that she is completely willing to change who she is as a person and essentially die, really scares the adult in me.<br /><br />That being said, I think it's a great opportunity to discuss the book with my daughters, get past the "Edward is hot" stuff, and really talk about the choices Bella makes, especially those those that can't be reversed.Ruth Spirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16107919493665915704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-38551965191423382202009-04-17T17:40:00.000-04:002009-04-17T17:40:00.000-04:00I am sticking to what I said earlier. Sure, not ev...I am sticking to what I said earlier. Sure, not every parent can monitor what their kids read. The ones who complain about the message this book is sending should. What I think is that do you seriously think that these 12 and 13 year old girls are going to think it's ok to have an abusive boyfriend because they read a book once that made it seem ok? Do you still act on things based on what you believed and thought at age 13, at age 18 even? I know I dont. At some point you grow up and have life experiences and things change. I just think some of these comments are a huge overreaction!tinkandalissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519082764772978297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-53336385639032289252009-04-17T17:30:00.000-04:002009-04-17T17:30:00.000-04:00thank you, thank you for putting it in such a conc...thank you, thank you for putting it in such a concise and meaningful way. I have wondered about this book since I read it, Why was Edward attracted to Bella? Why is she such a wimp? Can she not solve a problem for herself? Why is it okay to sleep with a boy if you're not having 'sex'? And why is it okay to constantly lie to your parent?Teresa Fanninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07749879152933707532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-87207343587056553112009-04-17T16:58:00.000-04:002009-04-17T16:58:00.000-04:00Very interesting analysis.
My first book Uninvite...Very interesting analysis.<br /><br />My first book Uninvited is about a girl stuggling with self-esteem issues and substance abuse. When her ex boyfriend/new vampire comes to her window one night asking to be let in she's very tempted even though it would mean death. I get reviews from Twilight Fans decrying that my vamp in not romantic Edward and some go as far as to warn other fans away. My book is doing well, so I take it with a grain of salt--can't please everyone after all, but it makes me want to read Twilight to see what the deal is. <br /><br /><br />Amanda MarroneAmandaMarronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04920123946343470629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31584548.post-91694586299884904832009-04-17T15:22:00.000-04:002009-04-17T15:22:00.000-04:00Very nice post. I have now seen the movie and rea...Very nice post. I have now seen the movie and read the book and thought of Edward as controlling, your perspective takes that a step further, interesting. I've shared this post with my 13yo daughter (who prefers Jacob, by the way, yea!).Krishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18377158541524515120noreply@blogger.com